The County Line
The county line is a place traditionally known for being vague, ambiguous, and frequently visited by people who are intrigued by the prospect of viewing life from an unconventional perspective. Episodes include conversations led by host, Lee Carl, and a wide ranging cast of characters. Come join us for genuine hospitality and entertainment on the outskirts of life!
The County Line
#123 - Tony Pasko
Are you ready to navigate the ever-changing landscape of the music industry with Tony Pasko? Renowned composer, arranger, songwriter, and sound designer, Tony, takes us on an exhilarating journey through his life in the music industry. He candidly shares his experiences, from being a music fanatic to becoming a respected professional. He pulls no punches discussing the grueling struggles he faced, the unexpected triumphs he celebrated, and the invaluable lessons he learned along the way.
Tony doesn't shy away from the hard truths of the industry, sharing his insights on the impact of streaming services on artists' revenue, the changing role of major labels, and the necessity for authenticity. His refreshingly honest take paints a vivid picture of the industry's highs and lows and offers an invaluable perspective for anyone with big dreams of making their own mark in the music world. You'll be hooked by Tony's fascinating tales, whether he's recounting his surprising success with the banjo or revealing the business lessons learned from a chance encounter with Coolio.
But our journey with Tony isn't just about looking back. We also get a sneak peek into his latest ventures. Find out more about his upcoming release, Duck Days, his exciting new show Tony's Backstage Pass, and how he's leveraging the power of the internet and streaming platforms to reach new audiences. Join us for an episode filled with compelling insights, inspiring stories, and invaluable advice that will leave you fueled with inspiration and motivation.
TONY PASKO OFFICIAL WEBSITE: https://tonypasko.com/
TONY PASKO INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/tpasko
TONY PASKO YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/user/tonypasko
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(00:14) Tony Pasko's Music Journey
(11:35) Building Relationships and Success in Music
(17:13) The Changing Role of Record Labels
(29:48) Streaming's Impact on Artists' Revenue
(36:25) Navigating the Music Industry and Authenticity
(45:12) Authenticity in the Music Industry
(55:47) Taking Responsibility for Your Career
(59:59) Chicago to Mississippi
(1:07:32) Musicians in the Music Industry
(1:16:39) From Recording Mistakes to TV Success
(1:30:05) Banjo Mishap Leads to Unexpected Success
(1:39:54) Support, Invitation, and Collaboration Appreciation
Modern-day politics discussion and analysis. Conservative Political Commentator Ryan...
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The great and powerful Tony Pascoe has been so kind to join us on the county line today. Tony, how are you doing, sir? I'm great. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, we just experienced a little technical difficulty when we tried to get out the gate the first time, so this is the second, second time at it, but fortunately it was only 30 seconds in, so we're all good. So, tony Pascoe composer, arranger, songwriter, sound designer Sounds like you wear a lot of different hats and have for quite some time. Tony, where are you in your career now?
Speaker 2:When you spell it out. Well, when you spell it out like that, yeah, I guess I do. It doesn't seem like it to me, you know, but these days I'm just still plugging away, as far as I, you know, in my mind I go from one project to the next. I'm just trying to stay alive, pay the bills, live a life, have a career. So, when you know, when people come back and say, oh you did ABC and D, I'm like, oh, I did.
Speaker 2:Okay, you know, because I usually don't focus a whole lot on what I've done, because I'm always thinking of what's ahead and what's the next thing, you know absolutely so.
Speaker 1:has there ever been a point, was there ever a point throughout your journey as a musician that you questioned whether or not you could make a career out of it?
Speaker 2:Every day. Every day, I mean when I was a kid I do have to say you know, that was the only thing I. You know when you say when you're growing up, you know I had a dream I want to be a fireman or I want to be an astronaut. And then you know, other things get in the, you know, come into play. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:For me that was, I was always being a musician. That's all I wanted to be. I didn't know what any of that meant or what it took to do that. All I knew is I just loved music. I liked hanging out with musicians, I like playing music, recording at any facet. It is the only thing that interests me, you know. Nothing else kind of got in the way. I wasn't in, I wasn't good with my hands or I wasn't good at sports, none of that. So for me, music was like the it thing.
Speaker 2:So when I got out into the world and started realizing you know how hard this is and your work, construction and you do all these other things to supplement your income I just it just got to me where I was like I got to figure out a way to do this and make money at it and see where that takes me. So I never had this idea of I mean, of course I wanted, I wanted to be a rockstar and I want to be Van Halen and all this other kind of stuff Jimi Hendrix. But I ended up finding out that there were a lot of other people that had the same dream and we are all working within this industry and I just found a niche where I could do this. I could do this, and it was still working in the music industry. It wasn't being on stage and performing all the time. Sometimes I had to put my own ego on a shelf and back other people because they were, they were paying me to do it. So I was kind of like, all right, you know, my dad was a big influence on me and he guided me and helped me quite a bit to kind of steer me and keep me on this path.
Speaker 2:But every day I wake up and I'm just like, oh, here we go again, and it never ends. And this, and that's one thing with musicians I always try to tell them this is really what you want to do with your career. It's going to be all day, every day, and the more success you get. Sometimes that brings more work and you're working harder, but if you really enjoyed it, this is something truly inside you that you can't see yourself doing anything else or you can't do anything else like me. I have no other talents, you know. So I cling on to this thing that I have, you know, like grim death. So I just get up every day and I just do the best I can, and sometimes I'm successful at it. Sometimes I'm not, and you can't be afraid of the not, because you will have more of those than the successes, unfortunately that's right.
Speaker 1:So at what point, at what age, would you say that you felt as a breadwinner, that you had turned the corner, that you had made it to a point where music can be your full time occupation? Quote unquote.
Speaker 2:It was a slow, I don't think it was. Just one day I woke up and all of a sudden I was like, hey, I'm a professional musician, this is what I do for a living. You know, I think it's. I think I had to make up my mind a long time ago that I was going to be this professional musician at some point in time. So when I gave guitar lessons in a music store for, you know, when I was younger, to me that was working in the music industry. So and when I was in a band and we were signed to a record label, you know what I mean, to me that was being a professional musician. When I went to go work for Washburn or PV and I was the product specialist at Washburn, traveling, doing guitar clinics, that was me working in the music industry. When I worked with Leonard Skinner or Van Halen or Joe Santriani or Duran Duran, to me, again, that was me working.
Speaker 2:So I don't think it was one thing particular, I think it was the series of things where all of a sudden, one day, like you said, you do kind of wake up and you look back and you're like, well, I did all these things in the music industry and now it's my turn. When you know, writing music for TV and all that kind of happened, and then my career took another turn. So I think it's a series of little things. You kind of have to give yourself these little stepping stones of achievements, because if you're just thinking you're going to start at the bottom and then hit, start them, the you know the very few that happens. They have that long drop down. So you kind of want to take baby steps up to kind of secure that that fall, if it does happen, isn't so far or severe. You know you can recover from it.
Speaker 1:So your, your career has encompassed working on the business side of the music industry and being an artist. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I flip flop back and forth because really I grew up being a musician so that that was always. My goal is to be on stage playing, writing, music, recording. I mean I love that. My dad was a professional musician in Chicago back back in the 60s and everything and his band actually his claim to fame was he was the house band at the Playboy Club in Chicago back in the 60s and so he went through that whole era and played with some very famous people and everything and then he left the music industry because he got married and had kids and stuff and his life changed and it just wasn't important to him anymore. He kind of took his music career and kind of went to the church and for me growing up he always kind of music was never like you know the sex, drugs or rock and roll, the party. You know that a lot of musicians tend to fall into that.
Speaker 2:I never was a, I was never given that. My dad never showed me that part of the industry. For me it was always the job. The gig was. The was the job. You're getting paid, it's your responsibility to make sure everyone else has a good time.
Speaker 2:So I only saw growing up being kind of my dad's bands roadie. You know what I mean. I would set up the drums and the mics and every damn 10 years old, instead of going to sleepovers at my friend's house, I met the Ramada in it my dad's band, you know, being a roadie doing gigs and attend, and I loved it and I was just obsessed with that whole scene. So for me it was more about I saw the work. I never saw the party part of it and my dad just kind of brainwashed me or instilled that in me. Where, you know, this is a job, this is something you do. This is how you know what I mean. So I always had this kind of maybe work I hate to use the word work ethic, but I guess I get.
Speaker 2:I did because when I would go to gigs where I was in bands as I got older, all my friends are at the bar and they're doing let's do a shot and this. I'm like are you kidding me? We got showtime, we got to do sound check and you know that's the stuff that always ran through my head. We got to check these lights and this and that, blah, blah, blah, yeah, and for me that's just how my mind works.
Speaker 2:So when I got into the music industry and I saw all these other musicians just sitting around partying, I'm like, hey, work's got to get done. And I was always the guy taking cables and plugging stuff in and setting up. And then I got noticed and people were like, hey, do you want a job? Do you want, I will hire you know, they saw me working.
Speaker 2:So I was always that guy and I guess that kind of worked for me because the somebody in the industry saw hey, this guy's willing to work, he's not just going to sit there and play guitar the whole time, he'll put that down and he'll do this and he'll help this other guitar player get the best sound. Like when I worked with Satriani that I had my own ideas of what I liked, and then, working with Joe and hearing his plethora of knowledge, I mean, and his ear, I learned so much and so I like to take that stuff in and made me a better player, gave me a better ear, it made me change my sound and so for me it was a lot of. That just meant I had a lot of mentoring and stuff, but I think it comes down to it's the work.
Speaker 1:Right, right, you know you got it.
Speaker 1:It sounds like your, your experience under your father's tutelage, dovetailed nicely for you in the way of a career. And as you developed into an adult it sounds like it's part of in your DNA to have that work ethic, not only because you you were raised that way by your parents, but you had that, that real world hands on experience from a young age and so having that mindset, coupled with the musical talents that you obviously have and the artistry side of you, the artist side of you, dovetailed nicely for sounds like you to be able to capitalize on a lot of opportunities that maybe just artists with, without that hands on real world experience, so to speak, can't capitalize on.
Speaker 2:And that's a secret that I tell every, every, every young adult that, or every kid that wants to get into it. I always tell them that exact same thing. I'm not, I'm not so, so greatly talented. There are some amazingly talented people in this world and I've been around quite a few of them, so I know some of these people are just so, just so, blessed with talent. I work at it, I practice every day. I don't have that God given gift and my dad had it and. But my dad was one of these people.
Speaker 2:One of the things I always say that he told me that I that sticks with me is you know, to be able to earn the right to be on stage you have, you should know every job that goes along with the backstage, because you can't walk on stage. You have to go through the backstage to get to the stage. You don't know what all those people do, then you have no right to get on that stage and expect them to do their job if you don't know what it is. So he was always like telling me like you know, put your ego away. And now he's going to be center of attention and not going to have the spotlight. He goes. It takes a special person, takes a very good musician and he's always say don't be a rockstar, be a musician. Musicians have careers and what that means is sometimes a musician's career takes a backseat to some, to another musician's career. And but the learn that. What I didn't realize is what you learn from that. You know, and this business in music it's nothing more than who you know. You've got to make those connections and I found out real quick nobody hires people they don't like. They only hire people they like Like, for instance, I was.
Speaker 2:I was doing years ago. I was doing a clinic in a music store and this kid came up and he was a good guitar player. You know a young kid and he came up to me and after my clinic he goes you're not very good, how'd you get this job? You're not the greatest guitar player I ever heard and I said why? You're right, I'm not, but I'm the nicest guy you'll ever meet and that's why I get these gigs. You need to drop the attitude and that's one thing.
Speaker 2:A lot of musicians, I see it. I have gotten gigs over much more talented people than me Because I have some tools, I have a work ethic, I know how to read music. I work hard at it, I show up prepared, I show up early. That's another thing. You know, I've gotten gigs just because I was the first guy there. I remember doing an audition and the guy's like where's everybody else? And he's like I don't know, I've been sitting here for 50, he goes you've been here 15 minutes. And I'm like, yeah, he goes, do you know the stuff? Yeah, you're high, yep. I mean sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 1:Well, it never hurts, and regardless of the industry, to have all those qualities that you're outlining a great work ethic, showing up on time. You know it's a very small thing that many people overlook, especially those who do it, but there are a vast number of people who just cannot manage time and that's so important when you want to put somebody in a position that's high profile or a leadership position, whether it's in music or not. People want to know that they can. People in authority want to know that they can depend on whoever it is that's required to do the job. And that's, you know, that's great advice I think you're given to those, those young people, because they can take that, regardless if they stay in music or not, they can take that's a quality and a characteristic that they can take with them wherever they end up.
Speaker 2:I, you know, and for me, show that you care like I remember when I first met Joe Satriani and I was I was new at PV and we were working on the jazz the JSX was just this idea at the time and it was, you know, kind of in its Creation stage I took over from another gentleman, bill Xavier, who was the previous product specialist. He got promoted up and then they hired me to come in to follow Bill. So Bill's like let me introduce you to Joe. We were in New Orleans, joe was playing a show and we go to the hotel and you know I was I was a fan, you know, of course is Joe Satriani. So I get to meet him and we're sitting in this little you know bar area you know in the hotel in New Orleans and just having a conversation and he was just so chill and so my, my anxiety kind of went down and and Bill and them were talking and they were both from California, so they knew each other years ago and that's why Joe got to PV was because of Bill, and so he hands me over, we start talking about some stuff and I'll never forget I had all these notes in my head.
Speaker 2:This is how I am and I said, okay, I don't want to be fanboy, I don't want to put you on this, but I got some questions and I just some things from listening to his albums and career and what were you using on this and this? And you know, it was just that point. I saw Everything change with what I went. Joe just kind of turn around, said, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:You say that, well, we were here and I didn't have access to this. So we end up using this amp because I'm surprised you picked up on this. So sometimes showing up and just showing you know interest and and the respect you know, sometimes, because I get a lot of guys that those come in oh I like that song, I don't know why you wrote that song now, so it's all opinions. Well, you know, you know, I mean you gotta watch how you come off sometimes. Sometimes you come in and question going like I had a Band one time and I said I know the single that first single was not the band's choice. I knew that was a record company guy and they're like you're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we didn't want that. So we wanted this other song and I'm like, well, it's a better song, but the record company wanted this right now. Oh yeah, you know. So it's those connections you want to make, I guess is my whole point you speaking of charts, how has that changed and how Success is measured?
Speaker 1:and as it pertains to charts, you know, with the advent of streaming, as opposed to what were historically, what we've historically utilized is just radio. Radio plays for charts. Now it's, it's measured in streams in addition to radio. Do you have, do you have knowledge in regards to you know where the chart, how the chart industry has changed and what it's, what it consists of currently?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I'm not one of these musicians that I hear a lot of guys in the Alchem. There's a lot wrong with the music industry. You know. I'm not gonna just jump on that bandwagon and add to it, but there's also a huge upside to the music industry currently. Technology has been. I'm not a huge fan of technology, but technology has worked in musicians favors and the streaming thing. I'm not really against so much because it's been so good to me and and it has changed.
Speaker 2:You know we're before, when we were growing up at least me and my generation, I, you know is about albums and this and you know I loved it. You buy a new record and you open it up and you read all the liner notes and then and I miss that, I, I swear I do, I miss that we're downloading something and seeing on it. It's not quite the same, I don't get the same, you know right Jones for it. But but it's still a thing and musicians are still charting. You know I have a friend of mine, daniel Boone, who I produced. He has a song that's charting right currently.
Speaker 2:That's on the independent country charts. Well, that didn't exist years ago, you know. I mean, the independent country charts was this underground thing that nobody really cared. Well, now, some of these different charts and because of streaming, that playing field has leveled off. So now his song it's called that's my drive, that he wrote and it's 98 or something like that, and he made the top 100, which is fantastic, you know, and but he's up there with other major artists because Independent means, you know, they're just not part of a main label anymore and labels aren't labels anymore. So people are putting out more music independently, which I think is wonderful, and it kind of gave the control back to the artist. And and the labels aren't these gatekeepers like they once were, where you couldn't have a career unless you went through there. Yes, yes, let me stop you right there, because that brings up something that I'm very interested in.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned labels being gatekeepers. Right, and that's 100% what they have been historically and continue to be to a certain extent today, not as much due to the technology, but the technology and the advent of it and the affordability of it for the average person Now also levels the playing field and gives people, gives more artists, more of an opportunity To be heard and not have to be so dependent upon getting a big record label deal Now at this point. Do you think Doesn't hurt? Yeah, do you think that's what you're talking about?
Speaker 2:Doesn't hurt. Yes.
Speaker 1:Do you think record labels? You said they're not labels anymore. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Well it's, they're not as much of a necessity as they were. You know, I had a band back in the 90s and we got signed to this, to this one, to Warner Brothers was subsidiary of Warner Brothers and in Chicago back in the day. And when we got dropped, you know, like every new band, we made the same mistakes every other band makes. When you're 21, you know, and signed to a label, you know we made every mistake you can make and we got dropped while our career was over. At that point it were where the industry was in in the early 90s. You know, the Grunt, pre-grunge era and all that kind of stuff. If you didn't have a major label you were done. But then all of a sudden, this, this little independent thing started happening where some, all of a sudden, bands were having hits with little labels. You know you didn't have to be Warner Brothers or Atlantic Records or Sony and in some of these big guys, you know, all of a sudden, you know you had big hits coming from, you know, and Geffen at that time was big, but they started small and you know I I just started seeing the tide turn a little bit. So where a lot of the guys in my band as we broke up. You know One guy went to go back to. He went back to school. You know study to be a lawyer, and you know the others went, and wherever.
Speaker 2:But I stayed in the music industry because, again, that was my only goal. I knew that wasn't my end. All that was just my jumping off point. So I got into more bands, I started working behind the scenes and I started figuring this business out and what I end up seeing behind the scenes was these labels have way too much control and they were not paying any attention To the scene itself. I was a part of a scene when I saw through the grunge area. You know grunge kind of came and went. You know they kind of imploded on themselves. You know that whole era, even though some of great music came from that era and some great bands Pearl Jam, nirvana, you know Sound Guard and all those bands but there was this underground part that nobody was paying attention to and I was like one of these days they're gonna go away and all these other bands are gonna come out through the thing.
Speaker 2:And what happened was, as you know, cops college student came up with this way of streaming music and this, and that he approached every major Record label and said you guys need to start streaming all your bands. Here's this technology, you need to put it up on a website and this and that, and they all turned them down. Every single one of them turned them down. And he's like then, and he's so. He's like fine, you don't want, you want to be these gatekeepers. I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash it all down. And that's when he came out with Napster, and that's why Napster happened the way it did, because every major label Didn't see where this underlying belly, where the American people or where the industry was. There were Thousands of bands that were getting no attention because these gatekeepers said they couldn't have careers, and all these bands were like hey, we got to pay our bills too, and and I saw that turn around and that, for me, I came out of that.
Speaker 2:So when Napster and all this start happening, what I saw was Huge bands that I idolized all of a sudden came down to my level. All of a sudden, my music is on the same website as their Music was on. You know what I mean. All of a sudden, my stuff Was intermixing, just because we were just numerically, you know? Or, or, yeah, you know our last names. You know just ended up coming in with the band name or whatever. I had. It just got listed that way because the computer doesn't know, can you? You know you computer doesn't know they're better than we are, they're more famous than we. All they know is Pearl Jam, stars would appear in Pasco, stars would appear boom, and, and I'm listed right next to those guys. So that to me is was huge and and that took my career kind in this other direction. So it helped that the it kind of.
Speaker 2:You know the Kings kind of crumbled a little bit. Now they still have reach. You know there's still, and a huge advantage of being on a major like budget. You know sponsorship, you know there. You know you have a lot of that lot live. What is it? Live not live aid. But you know the, the touring company and all this. I mean there there's a lot of connections. There still is a major label, part of the industry Grammy. You know the Grammys. You know there's some of these big places. They only pay attention to one part of it, but if you look at where we have gone, well, now we have Spotify and and now an app store still around. And now you have all these other streaming type of places and YouTube and all these. Anybody can be a part of it, everybody. And and what I always tell people and this was some good advice I got years ago From George Clinton, of all people, from P-Funk, he said to me cream rises to the top, he goes. Just put yourself out there, he goes. If you're good it'll. That's right.
Speaker 1:I totally, I totally agree with that sentiment now, the fact that we now have all these platforms when people can put their music for the listener to consume has that caused artists to have to make more music more often?
Speaker 2:Yes, now, that's now here's now here. There's always a flip side. When something goes up, there's always the underbelly the. The underbelly, unfortunately now is you have tons of artists out there. Now you have tons of white noise. Everybody can make any kind of music they want. The downside to that is because of that the, the listener, is changed. This is something I was just having a discussion with somebody about not long ago.
Speaker 2:People in the 70s listen to music totally different than how kids today listen to music, and you can call it Whatever you want 80d, 80, hd or whatever. We have short attention spans or whatever. That's fine, but that. But again, that's the reality. They're used of having more music more often. They don't have to hold on to stairway to heaven because there isn't going to be another Led Zeppelin record for three years. You know what I mean. That doesn't exist anymore. Now they can get More stuff. They can get the outtakes, they can get the live performances, they can get their fill, like for me, if I was a kid now growing up, maybe I wouldn't be as as much of a a Go-getter like maybe I am Because everything's cut is being presented to me.
Speaker 2:When I was a kid I had a search, for I had to go to record stores, you know, and they were snooty at these record. If you remember record stores, the guy that ran the record store was like this hipster guy that knew everything and you were, you didn't know real music and you're not listening to this guy. And Coltrane did this in 1967. You don't know this import recording from Japan and and all this stuff made you feel like I didn't know anything. But that was part of this, you know. It gave you that drive. I'm gonna learn more. I gotta, I gotta be hipster guy like him. You know, I gotta know something, because I you feel you were constantly feeling if you didn't track it down, you were not in the know, you weren't in that in crowd. Unfortunately, now the kids can sit at home and the in crowd comes to them and so. So it's kind of flipped. It's neat that they have access to all of it, but part of me always says, well, because they're they have so much being thrown at them, do they even?
Speaker 1:appreciate? I don't think so. I don't not on the level that that Music used to be appreciated. Now, that's not say that's anybody's fault, anybody's right. One person's right, one person's wrong. One Generation just had a different experience than the other, but it has, from what I can tell, just the, the frequency and the quantity in which the artists that I pay attention to the most Come out with music seems to be as a as a result, to a certain extent, of the environment as it pertains to streaming, because you know you can just with the numbers that the more More shit that's out there, the more content that's out there, the less one listen or one view means. So the let the less weight one one listen or one view or one download, the less weight it carries. Now in podcasting, Nearly as much.
Speaker 2:That's another big reason why you want to put more music out there, because you hit it right on the head with the Downloading. We don't make enough, so we have to put more out there to keep that gender. They keep the flow and our money Keep it generating. You know, because before an album can come out, you know, and a guy, the guys, made enough money where they could live the next year or two. Hopefully, you know they had a hit or whatever.
Speaker 1:But yeah, nowadays that's so when, when I hear someone say XYZ artist released an album last month and has a masked X number of sales Since releasing that record, what is defined as a sale in today's environment?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a predetermined number. Now how that happens is, let's say, if it comes out through a label, okay, let's just just X, country artist. They already know how many pre-orders they have, because you're not seeing CDs anymore. You know as it Downloads. And so what is the?
Speaker 1:is a pre-order, like when an album is about to be released on Apple or Spotify or whatever the platform is, and you can pre-order that album or pre Download it. Is that a sale? Okay, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's changed. And you also got to think depending they it's all computer algorithm a Certain album could be released, like Taylor Swift. She releases anything you know. She can release burping to music, you know what I mean and she's on the top of that algorithm. So whatever she releases is gonna be on the crop, the cream of of everything. So it's gonna show up everywhere. It's already been pre-sold, it already is in all the other Formats countries. It's already been licensed to commercials. It's already Before we even hear it, it's already made its rounds. So that's when they come out saying well, you know, she already has three, three million downloads. Well, it's because she's in three million places when the song, and then when it goes up from there, she know, they know when they release a certain song she's gonna get an X amount of downloads right out of the gate. So it's a predetermined number that they give you. It's not and it's sometimes it's exact, or if it goes over. That's when you always say oh Well, we thought she was only gonna get three million, she got six because they add that. But um, and that's how it's always been.
Speaker 2:Record sales were the same way when a record came out back in the 80s, depending on how many music stores pick, placed in order for that, for that album. That's how they would tell you oh, it went platinum the first week. How could that be? It just came out well, because it hit a hundred thousand music stores in in the United States. So there's a hundred thousand copies out there. That's how that. That's, that's the number they always use and it's the same idea. It's out there in X amount of spaces. So that's how they tell you it's, it's, it's already been downloaded three million times. Well, it's in three million places already and they know per space, spotify, you know, or wherever you know you get your music, it's gonna get that amount.
Speaker 1:Has the revenue percentage per sale. Ie download decreased for the artists since we've shifted from Records and CDs to streaming you.
Speaker 2:It was never good. I'll put it to you this way you talked to any artist from the 1950s they all got screwed. You talked to any artist from the 1970s they all got screwed. You talked to any artist from the 1990s, they were the last ones smashing pumpkins. And all those guys will tell you man, our paychecks weren't great, but it's better than now. Then the bottom again, this Napster thing. When the bottom fell out, that's really what it meant was the financial bottom fell out.
Speaker 2:Streaming. Personally, now, this is the only downside to streaming I will ever talk about. But this is common knowledge, I hope, because a lot of people always give me this weird thing like well, you're getting paid, your stuff is being streamed, you're getting paid. And it's like well, wait a minute, let's talk about the payment. You stream one of my songs, I get a percentage of a penny. You have to play my stuff a hundred times, almost a thousand times, for me to make a dollar, for me to make a penny. You have to listen to it a hundred times For me to make, or 75, I think it is 75 times. Then you make an actual penny.
Speaker 2:What they did was they decided well, because streaming has no value to it. They're not actually owning the music, they're listening to it. So we don't have to give you actual pennies, even though it costs me dollars to make. If it costs me $5,000 to produce a song, you know what I mean. Think about that Before I can make my $5,000 back. I got to get 100,000 streams. Now that is possible, but not every artist gets that. You know what I mean. Again, you're going back to that breaking even point. Where people don't understand is yes, I'm getting paid, but my work is being perceived so much less.
Speaker 1:There's a cost to producing anything. Although music is art, obviously there's still a cost to creating particularly great art. People deserve to be paid for the time and the effort and whatever the financial budget burden or cost was to produce a product. It just seems to me like now that the music landscape is just so vast, when it comes to consumption, that I'll get on Apple Music, and I love listening to music, all types of music. I've got different playlists.
Speaker 1:You bringing up the introduction of Napster reminds me of when I was a child. Napster came out so I was probably seven or eight years old, maybe even younger. The only music that I was exposed to was much like any other child in a small town in that era on the local radio station and whatever the parents had in the house. Then phones and streaming came first and we had Lime Wire. I'm sure you remember Lime Wire. Then I was able to explore more music that interested me. Then we were burning CDs and we finally made it to streaming, and when streaming came on and was on all of our smartphones, then we could really explore music.
Speaker 1:But now it's to the point where, like, there's just so much content out there that it's overwhelming to even try to decide which direction you want to go to discover new music. That's something that I find very difficult to navigate, although Apple and Apple Music and Spotify are in a very interesting competition to watch, if you ask me. But I think it's a great thing because, with all the negatives that people may say streaming has brought on, it has, at its net result, allowed people to discover more music and more artists to be discovered, and that's a net positive, if you ask me.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's why I don't complain about it, because I've taken as full of advantage of it as I absolutely could and I've done okay. I guess I'm still here. To me, I think, what it comes down to is you're right, this white nice. I always go back to what George said the cream rises to the top. There's a reason why certain people you just gravitate to, then others, some seem like they're always spinning their wheels and then they just never quite make it. That's what every generation had, that this generation has a bit of it as well. So for me, I think as an artist, you have to make up your mind early on that this is just what I do. This is kind of where I'm comfortable. This is who I am. You got to be honest. That's the other thing.
Speaker 2:The internet has also brought this whole thing out, where before you can be as elaborate as you want to be, you can have your pseudo names and do whatever you want to yourself and make your art as much of an art as you want it to be. But if it's not authentic, people see right through it. So the technology doesn't cover up the genuineness of you. That actually exposes you even more now. So I tell artists you're going to be. You know they go oh, we're going to do this and we're going to do this. Can you keep that up? Because if you do all this, just remember they're going to hold you to it. You're going to have some kid that's like, oh well, that's who they are. And then when you come over here and all of a sudden he finds out, well then it's a whole thing's a lie. You'll lose them completely. Now you know what I mean. So you have to think of what you're putting out there, how you're representing yourself, because not everyone's going to agree with you anyway. So, no matter who you are, someone's going to say, well, he's an idiot, I don't care about him. You know well, okay, well, but this is at least I'm true to myself and that's just to me.
Speaker 2:You just got to make that honest effort, no matter, and your fan base, whoever they are, will follow you. You can change within your confines. If it's honest. Tell your story. I always tell artists this I get a lot of musicians that don't want to tell their story because they're afraid they may not come off or people may think there's something that they're not. And I said what do you mean? Human, be human. We have fools. All of us have faults. We all made mistakes. You know your audience aren't stupid and if they are, then you're doing something wrong. You know what I mean. You want to appeal and let them see who really who you are, because that that makes them want to invest in you.
Speaker 1:And that's what you're really. So you it sounds like you're, you were ahead of the curve and when it comes to streaming, and you were on board with the quote unquote new school, new style of distributing and consuming music.
Speaker 2:And recording my own music. I've been recording my own music. I mean I remember I had in the nineties everything was in recordings. This is before pro tools. I went to Columbia college and I remember I took a studio class and I was at WaxTrack studios in Chicago and I remember the engineer in WaxTrack at the time said you know, in 10 years these big boards and all of this, it's all going to go away. And he had an Apple computer on his desk. He goes we're all going to be making music in this thing. And I'm like that's crazy. No, I think that this box cannot replace all of this equipment. And then he goes I hate to tell you in 10 years this is what's going to happen If I were. You learn this box.
Speaker 2:So I remember Roland made this recording, digital recording piece. It was huge at the time. It was like eight tracks and you could record on a hard drive. It was like a, not like a floppy disk, but it was those square hard drives that you would put in. And I remember I just started plugging mics in and recording and figuring out sound and just trying to do it myself.
Speaker 2:And you know I had a lot of inspiration because of that because, as we were growing up you always hear about, like Jimmy Page, they recorded John Bonham's drums in a hallway and that's how he got the sound of the drums. It was in a hall, it wasn't in a studio. So I always had that in my head like well, I'm going to be like Jimmy Page, I'm going to record my own stuff. You know what I mean. And you just do that as a kid, cause, you know, as you get older you start second guessing yourself.
Speaker 2:When you're a kid you're just like I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it like that. You just try it without not even thinking. And I just started recording my stuff. So when the internet came out, all of a sudden I had all this music and I'm going to put it up. This is, you know, and then my mom for most part it's your mom and your dad and your aunts and uncles I'm like, oh, look at Tony's music, oh, it's so nice, and that's how it starts. And then it kind of grows. And then all of a sudden, you know it, just the industry kind of grew in that direction and I just had stuff out and it just kind of.
Speaker 1:Do you have any? Do you have any reservations about electronic instrumentation, whether it be garage band or logic and things of that nature?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I like playing my style, I like to hear real instruments personally. But to see some of these kids what they do with this technology, I mean it's cool. I mean it's not my thing, you know personally. But I got to tell you, you know, like when I remember when hip hop first came out and all my musicians friends are like, oh, this is just record, they're stealing this and it's just drum beats, and I'm like, yeah, but that's really a cool song, man, and I mean that's just kind of neat. I couldn't do it. That's not how I came up in anything, you know, but so for me I was. I kind of respect the artistry. I understand why they did it. You know what I mean. I wish they all learned to play an instrument like me. You know that's what I prefer. But you know you listen to Beastie Boys, you listen to License, to Ill.
Speaker 2:I was in eighth grade when that album came out. That was life changing for me. You know what I mean. You know I mean that album was just like, oh my God, you know so, and that's a totally different genre of music that I ever listened to. But it was so creative, you know, and it was so different sounding and that woke me up to like, well, I could sound different than maybe I could try different things. Or why am I not hearing this kind of music? You know what I mean. So for me, that's how my mind has always worked. When I hear something new or something different, your instinct is, you know, like the Macarena, I'll swear to God, I was like, okay, the worst song in history, for example. That song is a good example of a record company shoving something down the public's throat and just telling us it's going to be a hit. You're just going to like it, just do the stupid dance.
Speaker 1:Doesn't that happen, tony? Sorry to cut you off, but that reminds me of something that I do want to ask you. So, as it pertains to labels and their influence and their impact on what is ultimately a hit, do they just have enough ammunition in the way of funding that they can just fund it infinitely until people learn it? And then, once they learn it, it's like, whether they really like this shit or not, they know the song and we all know, once we know a song, that we like it even more. So like. Is the shit that they're pushing really what the people really like, or is it just what received the most funding and the most marketing?
Speaker 2:Yep, it's all money and that's part of the industry. That still happens, even more so today. That happened years ago too. I mean, it's been happening. Every generation has it. You look back, like when the doors licensed Light my Fire to a vacuum company or whatever and they're selling vacuum and Jim Morrison went insane because he's like did we write that song for a commercial? I thought we were artists, I thought we were songwriters. You know what I mean. It was called Jingles back then. You know what I mean. And I see that today, where they use these songs in advertising and now I'm not going to get on my high horse because I do it. You know I have this money there for artists. I understand the business part of it now, but, with that said, it can be that way. We invested in the song, we think it's a hit. We're going to keep shoveling it out there until you like, until the general media says you know we want it now. Or you know the Macarena, like I said, is the perfect example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I pay attention to primarily country music and hip hop music. Those are my two favorite genres and so that's what I listen to mostly, and so I keep an eye on who the most popular acts are, what the hits are of the day, all the thing, all the you know, all that goes with that. But what I've noticed, particularly in the country music industry, is recently they have now that, granted, the stars could have just lined up just right to where they have authentic artists who definitely resonate with the people, who are over talented. But it seems to me like they are giving more of these underground artists, more of the spotlight and promoting them more, as opposed to just taking a prototypical guy with a fake Southern Droll and a cowboy hat and creating a prototype, essentially, and marketing him and pushing him. It seems to be that the artists are becoming more authentic and they're allowing them to be who they really are. Have you seen evidence of that recently across the music industry and, if so, in what ways can that be highlighted?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a direct result of the internet. I mean, what the reason? You're seeing guys, this country music, especially now with some of these newer guys that are coming out? They are, they're authentic, these guys, you know, and they're great, but that's because the internet is telling these record companies these guys are getting billions of dollars.
Speaker 1:You better pay attention to what the people actually like.
Speaker 2:All this is a response to them doing it on their own and all of a sudden the industry comes to the artist. That's the ultimate. That's really in every artist. That's the should be their goal today. Get yourself out there, do it yourself, run this thing like your own record label, like your own business, and then do so well that the industry finds you. And then you know, maybe you do an album or two with them or whatever. You know, like I said, there is an advantage and then that also that does another thing.
Speaker 1:I mean that that creates a generation of artists who are more privy to the business nature of the music industry. So not only can they do, they have that experience, that business experience, but they know how to not get screwed whenever they do go to the, to the negotiation table with a label like the, like the Zach Bryan guy, for example. I mean he is just, I mean he's just everywhere, he's probably the most popular person in music right now and he did it for a while on his own. But now take him, for example, and I don't know his status, if he's with a label or if he's been approached, what have you? But a person like him can be theoretically more business astute and get the better deal and capitalize as much as possible when going on board with one of those labels, and you're going to have a generation of artists, to a certain extent, that have that experience.
Speaker 2:And that's wonderful. That's what we want. We want better educated musicians like that representing themselves, and that's really what it comes down to and that's why I think this trend it's so great, because the playing field has been leveled off and this has been happening for a while. Think about you know, a lot of people talk about rap. Look at rap to me. I got an early appreciation of rap. I met Coolio years ago. Okay, I'm dating myself early rap Coolio. But I was at a NAMM show.
Speaker 2:I was working at Washburn at the time and we were doing some speakers or something for his tour. We were supplying some equipment for his tour and I remember he showed up and he was doing an autograph signing at our booth. You know, it's an industry trade show thing and he's Coolio and he had the crazy hair and he had all the stuff and the gold and he's all coming in and acting up and he's signing the autograph in front of the people. He comes back. We had this like back area where they had offices. You know, at this booth he comes back, he sits down and I'll never forget this we're in a room of a bunch of us and my boss and everything. He sits down. He pulls out this contract, he opens it up and he puts on these glasses he had and he goes now this revision over here.
Speaker 2:I don't like to explain to me the language. This and this is. He was like he was his own lawyer, he could read contracts and all of a sudden, the whole act went away, the whole job. You know whatever his whole lingo thing was. That all went away and I sat there like, oh my God, I get it. You know what I mean. This is show business. That was the show. Now here's the business. I couldn't tell you how impressed with that man I was. He was very well, just a nice person, smart though, and he caught every little thing and he had certain things, I mean, and that's when I went. You know what. That's what these guys have figured out. If you look at the rap industry, every rock band should follow, should run their band like a rapper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something that interests me. That I've noticed in the music landscape is that successful rappers historically have gone on to start their own label. Whether that label ends up being successful or not, that's neither here nor there in this observation, but in country music I don't remember any artists creating a label after having super success. They may create, they may get a bar on Broadway and Nashville, you know, they may do something of that nature, but the rap game is known for successful artists going on to create their own labels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, independent, doing their own thing. You know what I mean. I mean again, I mean I like the music. I may not agree with how they do it, you know what I mean, but they're authentic. If you notice what they do and how they put their business together, they're no joke. You know they'll have their own clothing, their own drinks, and this I mean. They know about licensing and that's what I learned. And that's what I learned early on was I got into licensing with my music and that's where a lot of my successes come from was from this licensing. And I tell you I mean it's amazing in life as you go on, if you just sometimes just zip it and pay attention, it's amazing what gets presented to you If you pay attention. Like I said, coolio, it was that influence. When I saw this guy make he turn that switch Boom. Now I'm like, well, now I know why he's successful.
Speaker 2:I get it now, oh OK, I got to be a little smarter here. And then you just kind of.
Speaker 1:It's cliche.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the most cliche sayings of all time. But knowledge is power, and I mean the more I live, the more I believe and recognize that. That if you, if you have that knowledge that a lot of people don't, if you have scarce knowledge, then that is valuable, that makes you more valuable.
Speaker 2:And I don't buy into this whole thing that you know, like now I know we have a lot of these kids with just tons of excuses. You've got to get rid of that. That is a bad habit. And I remember my grandfather said to me, you know well, why'd you do this? Well, it was because of this. And it was well why'd you get a bad grip? Well, it was because of this. And he said stop that. Excuses is a bad habit. Not alone. It will stop you from doing lots of things Own up to it, say you're sorry or take responsibility, because what that does is it opens other things up to you. You know what I mean. So if I didn't see, like I said, like Cooley came in and he was, like I said, put on glasses, he's reading the contract, if I would have just had this pre like ah, you know what you know, I would have overlooked the importance of what that influence had on me, of pay attention to these things. You should be like that guy.
Speaker 1:And God puts us in situations and he gives us opportunities. Sometimes we capitalize on them, sometimes we don't, and you know, it's just we're cumin, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right. You're exactly right. You're not going to be like that for a hundred percent of the time or ever, but it's, it's very, it's very important for us, regardless of what we're doing, to be ready for those opportunities, such as being encountering Cooley and recognizing the greatness of Cooley's business acumen, you know. Take that to heart, recognize that that was a opportunity sent to you to learn something. Although a small encounter it was, it had a great impact on you because it sounds like it opened your eyes to what you could become if you represented yourself or other artists, for example.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's where I was saying you know, I have a lot of artists saying, well, I need a manager and I need a tour manager and I need this and I need a publicist. You, you're the, all those guys. Be those guys. And that's what I saw. I didn't see Cooley will bring in a lawyer and just sit back, smoke a cigarette, why. This guy explained everything. I saw this guy put on his own glasses and point out this, this, and he had it highlighted and everything. He did it himself so that you can trust yourself better than trust anybody else. So that was like I started doing that, more and more, asking more questions, just trying to take my own responsibility for my career. Even if you fail which I have many times, it's a that becomes part of the learning process. So then you don't, you're not afraid of failing as much. You understand why you fail, so you don't do it the next time. Now, repeating failures, that's the thing you want to avoid at all costs making that same mistake again and again.
Speaker 2:I was in a band a few years ago here in Pensacola really great band and the singer and the drummer were were this. I kind of joined them and they were had this career for many years, many years, and I came in and I said you guys keep making the same mistakes, the reason why your career isn't. You should be a lot more popular, a lot more famous we should be. You know, we should be playing much bigger places, making more money. But because you keep doing A, b and C, this is what's stopping. This is why you hit that ceiling. Let me help you. But some people are just unwilling or unable, for whatever reason, to see their own faults, to correct them, because it's not easy, and try something that doesn't seem as natural, because they you fall into this, this thing, and and and excuses and victim mentality. A lot of musicians have a victim mentality. I see it all the time. Well, it's because of this. Well, I can't do that, all right stop Right, just right.
Speaker 1:And we hear so many times of artists and athletes who come into success at a young age or very rapidly, and don't necessarily have the personal skills to handle all of those things that you mentioned themselves, but it's because they they haven't either had the time or taken the initiative to polish those skills and that skill set for them.
Speaker 1:But that's an interesting aspect of of the music industry, particularly when you're talking about stars, but every day, musicians as well, if you're talking about somebody trying to trying to book a show at the local hole in the wall those simple just doing those things and handling those negotiations can be immensely helpful in the long run. If you, you know, you stack those little exercises on top of one another and then one day you've got all that, you look up and you have all this knowledge and you start encountering situations that you've encountered before and you know how to handle them. And then you even get to a point where you know how to negotiate, you know how to use leverage and things of that nature, and you just polish your, your business skills, speaking of which you find out you have a whole toolbox full of tools that you didn't know you had.
Speaker 1:That's right. You're just chasing your dream. At the same time, you're also making yourself valuable. You're giving, you're putting more tools in your tool set, making yourself a better representative of yourself and Lord you know, god forbid, if music doesn't work out, then you've got some skills to fall back on and you know you've. You've you alluded to it when we came in, when we started. You have done a plethora of different things. You've had a plethora of different experiences. How in the world did you first of all end up in meridian and then, second of all, parlay that time in meridian to being include your music, being included on one of the most watched cable television shows of all time? How did that transpire?
Speaker 2:Well, I was working for Washburn. I was in Chicago. You know, I'm born and raised in Chicago and I was the product specialist for Washburn and I was at a trade show and I was telling you about this gentleman, bill. He was moving up. He got a promotion. He was the products the product manager at PV and I knew Bill and I remember Bill came up to me and he said Hartley, pv, I'm moving up. He told me I had to find my own replacement. He goes, would you be interested? He goes, I think you would be a good guy for this position. You know he goes. We need some fresh, young. You know you're a little bit younger than the guys that Hartley likes to hire, but I'll put you know he gave. He told me find your own replacement, I choose you. And I went. Wow, thank you Bill, that's wonderful.
Speaker 2:So I ended up getting a job a year after that encounter. It took a long time. They flew me down the meridian and everything and of course I was just like, really do I have to move to meridian Mississippi? But I had in my job interview I got to sit with Hartley. I never met Hartley or anything before. So I'm sitting in Hartley PV's office and I'm just kind of like this is kind of this is surreal moment, because I'm thinking, you know, you think a, you know Leo Fender, you think a Les Paul, you think a Jim Marshall, hartley, pv these are these buzz names, these are the guys that created these brands that we all grew up with and live with on a daily basis. And I was just like I'm sitting in the office of one of those guys and I'm like this is so crazy and he's. You know he's a big, animated guy and he talks like this and that you know he's a funny guy. But one thing he said to me that really piqued my interest, other than all the other things that I didn't know anything and you know he was the great Hartley PV and all that kind of funny stuff.
Speaker 2:But one of the things we start talking about, music and he's and he started going off about the blues. Well, I'm from Chicago, I know a little bit about the blues, but he's from Mississippi, where it all started. So a lot of my references. He kept saying no, no, no, you didn't know. Muddy Waters came from this little town over here and Buddy Guy's from Louisiana and it's just up the road over here, and BB King came from up and that's when we started talking. I went you know what? And he said to me if you come down, I'll show you you have all the reference of where the blues went to. He goes, I'll show you where it all began. If you come down and you become my guitar manager, he goes. That's one thing I can show you.
Speaker 2:And we had that in common. We had this love for the blues and the history and of country music and the blues and folk and just this. Just I'm a hit. I like that kind of stuff. And he made that comment to me and I said you know what? I went home and I told my wife I'm like you know, yeah, it's Moranium Mississippi. We don't have to stay there forever. But from a musician standpoint, if I ever really want to know of all the things, if I want to know where it all came from, where it all started, we are going to be in the belly, the you know of it all right there. And I'm like would you want to move? And she's like, yeah, let's just try it, you know.
Speaker 2:So my wife and I we moved down and I spent five years at PV as the product manager for the guitar and amp division and it was cool. It opened up a lot of doors, as you would suspect, being the product manager of PV, and it had a lot of. It was hard, I'll tell you. It wasn't the easiest gig by any heart, are we? Pv is not an easy guy, but he's a brilliant guy and brilliant people are not easy, you know. And so not not not that I want a bad mouth or anything, cause I think I think the world of him. He gave me an opportunity that just you know. He saw something and decided to let me try it and I came down and I was like a bull in a china shop down there the Southern gentlemen's that worked at PV and everything.
Speaker 2:And here's this guy from Chicago and I'm we're doing this and this and this and this, and we're going to do it like this and I'm I'm a mile down the road and all of a sudden they're like whoa slow. This is not how we do business here. We work at a different pace. You're not going to come in and you know, be this, you know kind of Yankee guy doing all this stuff and and but what they all ended up seeing that I, I didn't have an agenda like that, I was just enthusiastic and I just wanted to make the best products. And then again it comes back to these tools. Like you were saying, one builds upon each other and you got to learn to win people over. You've got to learn to have people want to work with you, and you got to learn how to talk to people and and and maybe I have a bit of that and I'm I'm personable in a way, even though we're from different backgrounds and stuff. I was generally interested in what happened and and the history. So I looked at these people as my historians and my teachers. Well, it's kind of hard to hate a guy when he's, you know, kind of asking you well, show me, how did this happen? What happened here? Well, civil war and all this and all you know what I mean. So I learned more than than I ever thought I wanted to learn. But I, you know, I tried to immerse myself into the community the best I could. I think the five years I was at PB we did some great work. I put out a lot of stuff. I'm actually in the PB book. If you know the Hartley PB book that he came on with. I have a little blurb right towards the end but he talks about me just a little bit. But so I have my little piece of PB history. You know which was, which was great. But that door opened up where that moved me up, where now certain artists saw me like here.
Speaker 2:Before I was always way down here. Even when I worked at Washburn I was the product specialist. I wasn't in any kind of management or anything. I was the guy that did all the clinics and I traveled all over the world. Washburn was wonderful to me, sent me everywhere and I played guitar all over the world. It was a great gig doing my little clinics and stuff. But then when I went to PB, I'm management now at PB, so I'm running one of the divisions. You know I had hundreds of people under me and but it was all guitars and amps. I mean, how wonderful was that? I had Eddie Van Halen, I had Joe Santariani, I had Leonard Skinner, I had Ted Nugent, I had. I mean, my God you know, I walked into this thing and it was like the Rocker Roll Hall of Fame. All of a sudden they're like here you go, tony, you get to hang out with all these guys now. And it was amazing. So I took it.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you real quick, tony, about your experiences with and your interactions with, some of these artists that you named in that role with PV. Excuse me, what did the interactions look like with artists and what value were you bringing to them? What exactly were you doing for them?
Speaker 2:Well, this is a good point. So you call, you're usually dealing with a lot of management companies. You don't necessarily deal with the bands personally. That's usually how a lot of these companies work. I didn't work that way. I actually had good relationships with the musicians because that's only how I saw myself.
Speaker 2:I'm a musician, so when I'm calling Joe Satriani, I'm a guitar player. I'm going to talk guitars to Joe Satriani. That's my dream. You know what I mean and that's what Joe knows and that's what he loves. So we hit it off because we're just guitar players. I just happened to be sitting in this seat.
Speaker 2:So when we did his signature amp, it didn't come from a point of well, you know, all right, we have to sell it like this and it has to retail for this amount of money and it has to do this. I didn't come to him as an accountant, I came to him as a guitar player, like, let's make the best, coolest amp ever and we'll make it do this, we'll sound like this and this and that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we came back and said, okay, well, it has to sell for this amount of money, so maybe we won't do this. You know what I mean and that's it was just my interaction. I had a little bit of that business side to me but I came at it from a musician when I called.
Speaker 2:You know, like when I was working with Doran Doran, I worked with John Taylor, the bass player from Doran Doran, you know I mean you just don't call John and just start talking business. You know this is what this man has done for many years. You got to know how to approach these artists. Granted me, having that position made them see me a little bit more like you know what I mean A little more on their level. So that helped. But it's how you come off. You have to be able to sell yourself like we had artists that came on board with PV. That said to me point blank I'm only here because of you, I like you PV. I never cared for the brand before.
Speaker 2:They never really made anything that I liked, and then they came on board and I made them something and they would go yeah, this is really cool. So that's what I think I brought. I was able I was this bridge to bring them together to get the products that the artists themselves really enjoyed playing, Do you think?
Speaker 1:Hartley PV recognized that component of you and considered that when hiring you.
Speaker 2:No, that's the part he hated, I think, about me the most. No, that's true, I think because I was so young. I think he thought he hired me and I would have no appearance opinion and I'd be the squirrely guy that he can kind of say do it like this, do it like how I did it, do it, you know, be like me, use the words that I use, and I think he saw me, when he hired me, as maybe being an extension of him out there, because one of his biggest complaints with a lot of the product managers were they wouldn't represent PV the way he thought we should be representing PV and I'd be out there and talking to Joe about pickups, and Hartley hated all that. He wasn't about that at all. In respect, though, to Hartley, pv, where his business was, was manufactured. He was a manufacturer. I have to source these parts, I have to put them together, I have to pay these people to assemble this, I have to send shipping, and all this, to his mind, worked that he was a manufacturer.
Speaker 2:I came into it as a musician that happens to work for a manufacturer, and that's how I saw, but I had a lot of success. He didn't leave me alone, for the most part because nobody complained. All of a sudden all these artists were so happy with me or with PV. You know they were all sun wearing PV logos and stuff. I made it. I made it okay for a lot of artists, but but that was what I saw was lacking so much Still did a little bit of that. But Bill was a little bit more on the business side.
Speaker 1:That's why I think Bill I think Bill saw that more in me than Hartley, while you were in Meridian working for PV, is that when your music first got picked up by Doug Dynasty?
Speaker 2:No, none of this happened when I was at PV. What happened was this was actually kind of funny. Hartley has this thing when you walk up into the main building of PV, it says PV. You know in the big lights, when you walk in and me being who I am, I'm out there saying talking is well, he must have heard. Well, tony said this. Tony said this. Tony said this. You know not a lot of Tony, tony, tony.
Speaker 2:One day I was in his office. He walked me out in front of the building. He's like whose name is on that building? I said your name and he goes. It says PV, not Pasco. And I went oh, and he goes. I think you're forgetting that you work for me. And that's when I went. Maybe I should think, because I see where he's saying he deserves to have a product manager that puts his name first.
Speaker 2:And I was getting to a point where I was feeling, you know he's making some decisions that I would never do if I owned this. You know I disagreed with some things and I go, but that's not fair to that man. You know this man hired me to agree with his decisions. If I truly don't feel the path he's going down is the right path, then who am I to get in his way? You know what I mean. That's how I took it. So I went maybe I should have my own Pasco company and then I can make the decisions I want. So I can say, well, whose name is on the thing? You know, it's Pasco and I kind of that's. When it kind of came to me where I was like I think I'm done here, I think I've done everything I'm supposed to do, I did it as well as I could absolutely do it. I gave him 110% in the five years I was here and then all of a sudden something kind of changed where I was like I want to give 110% here now. I couldn't give it to Hartley anymore, and I think it was that point. When he pointed out at the sign whose name is that, I just kind of went you're right, that's your name, this is your company. And that's when I decided to leave.
Speaker 2:I started my. I had a very good friend of mine, rusty Hawkins, and he's the one who sat me down and said why can't you do for the rest of the industry what you do for Hartley? I'm like is that possible? And he's like well, it's possible if you had your own business. It's not possible working for Hartley and he goes. Well, you know everybody, you know the. I mean those doors have been open. You know the floodgates open. Everybody knows you. Now, while you're popular and everyone knows you, now would be a good time to show everybody hey, now I'm my own guy and they probably respect you for that, want to help you, you know, and I'm like, oh okay, so that's what I did. So I started Pasco Consulting.
Speaker 2:I just started an LLC and I worked for Blackstar Amplifiers and Mad Professor Guitar Pedals. I took on a couple other companies just to kind of stay into it and I kind of helped them, like Blackstar. Blackstar had like four dealers in the US when I met them. Now they're like the eighth largest guitar amp company in the US or something like that, and they're a very small part in the beginning to help them establish that here. But you know, it's just one of those things where if I didn't have my own company I wouldn't have been able to do that. I applied a lot. What I learned at PV helped some of these other companies and it was during that time because of Blackstar, I had this.
Speaker 2:It's just funny how things in your past all of a sudden come back. Because I was a product specialist at Washburn, I could do clinics. Well, that's what Blackstar really needed more of. They needed me to go in the music stores and show off how great these amps were by playing. And that's what I did.
Speaker 2:I spent a year doing that and all of a sudden that got to a friend of mine you know the band warrant. I was telling the guys at Blackstar, you know you need to get some more endorses. And since I knew a lot of artists you know I did artist relations for you know Washburn and PV and stuff so I said, well, let me call some friends of mine because I thought they were great amps. We were at a trade show. I invited a bunch of my friends to come to listen to these amps. You know Blackstar friends of mine. They showed up because they knew me and we started talking and I was doing the clinic and Eric the guitar player from warrant said to me do you ever want to put out a record? He goes, you have a band. And I said, no, you know, I just have been working on this and he goes. You're a really great player, he goes, you should have a record out and I'm like I would love it. I would love that. Are you offering? He goes? Yeah, we just started our own record label called Downboy Records. Let's talk, let's do a record. Oh, this is great. So he signed me to Downboy Records.
Speaker 2:I recorded a record called no Lease and I made a lot of mistakes on that record. But he came back to when I was younger and remember I was telling you, I had that little eight track thing and all of a sudden I was like well, I'm going to start recording all this music. I had a bunch of riffs and stuff but nothing completed. So I started putting stuff together. I sent them a demo tape. I had every intention of going into a studio hiring a drummer and doing all this, but I thought at the time I'm going to be like Satriani. I'm going to put together my own Satriani kind of record, you know, because I just got done working with Joe. So I sent this demo tape to them to kind of show them what my album would be.
Speaker 2:Eric calls me up and he goes. You know, you should finish out these tracks. We're going to release it like this. He goes. They need a little polishing to them. I said, no, no, these are just demos, dude, I'm going to rerecord them like professional. And he goes why they sound fantastic. He goes is this, you all playing all the instruments? And I said, yeah, this is just my ideas. And he goes well, flesh them out a little bit, finish them up. He goes we're releasing this, you don't need anybody else, just do this yourself. This is your Tony Pascoe record, just do it. He goes if you can do all this production and play all the instrument, just do it. I was like really, and he's like yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did that. I said we're getting ready to release it.
Speaker 2:I sent the album to Joe. Joe gave me this quote to use to help promote the record and everything. So here I have, joe Santriani blessing my record. I have a record label. We put it out and it failed horribly and commercially. It did nothing. It just. I had one review and the guy basically said that the album lives up to its name noise, which I thought that was a great review, and so we put that out. But what ended up happening with that? How things happen in the world? Eric said to me yeah, the album, you know it's going to do whatever it's going to do. Instrumental records don't really sell that great, but he goes.
Speaker 2:We sent your record to a friend of ours who does licensing for TV and he said he was very impressed with when I told him that you played all the instruments, you did all the production and everything, that you have your own little studio at home and that you can produce whatever you know. You produce this yourself. And I said yeah, yeah, I did all of it and he goes. Well, he's interested because if you can do this stuff at home, maybe commercially you know this album isn't the wet your path Maybe it's licensing he goes. If you can produce your own stuff like this, they need guys like you that can just sit and write and play and record and send them finished tracks. And I said there is and he goes. So that album became kind of my demo tape.
Speaker 2:So they said to me there's this hunting show that and they want music. He goes. He goes, they're filming it Louisiana, he goes. You live in meridian, he goes. It's like three hours, like maybe two hours from where you lived in meridian. He goes. They want music and he just picked. Well, actually I didn't even know at that time, he just said they want music from where you live. Give them traditional, authentic music. You know, blues, bluegrass, that kind of stuff. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So I recorded a bunch of stuff, sent it off to him, didn't hear anything for months. Then I got a call from Jerry one day and he says to me he goes, okay, wednesday nights, a&e, there's this new show called Duck Dynasty, that your music is all over it. He goes they used all the tracks you sent them and they need more. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Oh, okay, sure you know. At that time I thought that was a lot of tracks and he said, no, just, you know, watch it and see what happens.
Speaker 2:That was season two, because season one was on the hunting channel or the weather channel, whatever it was. And then A&E picked it up. A&e ended up re-licensing, they ended up redoing all the music and everything. So then I came on board and then they had a new season two Then that had all my music on it and everything.
Speaker 2:So when none of us knew, and I watched it and I was like this isn't a hunting show. What kind of weird hunting show is this? You don't know me, because that's how they presented it. They said it was a hunting show. I'm like this isn't really a hunting show, but it was goofy and it was funny and you know, I mean the Robertsons were great people and all of a sudden, boom, season four came out. Well, we did season four. The first episode of season four broke a cable network record. We had 11.8 million people watch one episode of Duck Dynasty it was the most watched reality TV show in history at that time and they broke a cable record. And then we ended up getting 10, 11 million people watching after that. So it was huge numbers. I mean, none of us knew. If anybody tells you they knew Duck Dynasty would be what it became, they're lying. So none of us knew.
Speaker 1:So how many seasons did it end up? Did you do the music for all of the seasons?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did 11 seasons of Duck Dynasty and it's not just me, it's other writers. You know it's not all my music, but it's a lot of it. I mean I've probably done over 2,200 tracks for Duck Dynasty, yeah, over the 11 seasons and stuff. And that now again that open. All of a sudden I was still doing this part-time this wasn't any kind of full-time gig by any means. When Duck Dynasty became what it became, that's when everything switched and my record company said listen, they need you full-time. And now, dude, they need you full-time. Now Walberger wants music from you, shark Week wants music. You know, 30 for 30 for HBO.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden all these other TV shows wanted that sound, that kind of music or versions of it. So we started doing, you know, wicca Tuna, I did Pippos and Perolli's. You know, all of a sudden these other shows all wanted music. So I had to start writing. So every day I'm in my studio just pumping out as much music as I can. And it was funny, I gotta say. And what was so funny about how that kind of happened? I had to kind of let the whole other side of the industry, where I just spent a majority of my career, I kind of had to let that go. And now I'm this, writer for TV, which I never intended, ever.
Speaker 1:I didn't even know that was a job and all of a sudden my current, not to underestimate or downplay your ability as a musician, but did your ability to be able to record that music at home, produce it yourself and ship it out to these producers of these television shows at a lower cost than some big time studio who had to pay an artist, who had to pay a producer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Did that play a big, a big role in obviously you're talented and they liked the content of what you sent them in that demo, but did your ability to do it at a lower cost play into them ultimately signing up to do more work with you?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I don't doubt that whatsoever. But the industry changed too. Now, studios got to be too expensive. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:What happened with TV is and this is true, I mean not to pat myself on the back too much, but I've heard some tracks that would produce some professional studios and they would send my record label, would send me these tracks and they said listen to one of your tracks. Compared to what they just spent $10,000 on, I would listen and I'm like there doesn't sound that much better than mine. They're like no, your sound actually much better than theirs. I was like, oh, and they're like. You know, they said so it's that being able to record. Well, you know what I mean. I ended up finding I had these other tools I didn't realize I had in producing. And what actually happened, what worked in my favor?
Speaker 2:There was a shift that happened with Duck Dynasty, and this is absolutely true. What happened? I was sitting in a conference court. Before every season at Duck Dynasty, the music director would have a conference call and we would just all kind of sit and he would tell us what kind of music he wanted for the next season, what kind of direction they were going into, just kind of a heads up. So I remember the music director saying Tony, you know, do you have a studio? We record all this stuff? And I said, yeah, I have my own little studio here, you know.
Speaker 2:They said some of your tracks sound like a studio recording. Is there any way you can record some stuff that doesn't sound like it was done in a studio? I said, well, sure, I guess what do you mean. And he coined this phrase lo-fi. He goes, we want tracks that sometimes he goes. If you listen to old blues recordings, he goes those weren't recorded in fancy recording studios. Artists, you know, they're recording in closets and in hotel rooms and stuff. He's like could you give me some? You know. And I say so, you want all the noise and bleed. And yeah, whatever that is, because they don't know they're not musicians, we just want it to sound like old recordings. And I'm like I can do that. I mean that's easy, that's happy, actually, and that's what they asked for.
Speaker 2:So I got into this thing and when you hear a lot on Duck Dynasty, it's this lo-fi Kind of recording, not a ton of instruments, not all this fancy panning and everything and studio effects. It's a mic like, for instance, the kick drum that you hear on a lot of that dobro stuff that I did on Duck Dynasty. You know what that kick drum is. It's not a drum.
Speaker 2:I had this bathroom in Mississippi in my house, had these really tall ceilings in it had great reverb. So I put a towel over the toilet seat of this bathroom. That was connected to my studio and I'm from Chicago so I have boots. People don't remember boots In Chicago when you have snow you have winter boots. I had boots and I took this boot and I took a microphone and I put it over the toilet and then I had a click track and I would just hit this boot on the toilet on the towel and that's what you would get the sound, this flubby sound. And then I'd take it in the studio and I'd EQ it and compress it and add, you know, and then it had that reverb to it and that's the kick drum you hear on tons of those recordings is me just smacking a boot on a toilet. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So I started getting into this DIY type of recording, this lo-fi type of recording, and I was getting great results. Cheap guitars I went to Jeffries and you know they have those packs of instruments for little kids. I started buying all of those and all the little tingy things and stuff. That's what you hear on all these little drums and little vibraphones and stuff and little toy pianos. I started incorporating all of that and you start hearing that as and it's funny when you hear it behind the scenes and stuff it actually sounds kind of cute. So I started thinking less of like a musician, we're going to play it like this. You start thinking of more sound. You're a sound scape. You know what I mean, because you're painting a picture behind whatever's. You have a visual in front of it. So really musically, you're just painting behind the visual that they're watching or the dialogue.
Speaker 1:Yes, I try. Many people don't think about this and I didn't think about it much until Alana referred me to you and I started looking into some of your work and particularly the Doug Dynasty work, and then I started imagining Doug Dynasty without that music and it doesn't. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. It's got to have that background feel that you're speaking of to completely paint the picture that they're trying to paint.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I never thought about it.
Speaker 2:Right, and me neither. And I have to say, these editors, I don't know how they piece they would hear it and see it how they piece certain things. They use my tracks for some things. I would never, ever thought that would work. And then you watch it and you're like, well, that's actually really funny. That little hip cup thing I did actually works in this. I didn't know he would move like that. You know, like like, for instance, si, you know, uncle Si, that little banjo riff, his little theme, that you hear, that little banjo thing. That's me. The story behind that was so funny about that.
Speaker 2:That track was one before one of the seasons. The music director said and you never tell him no, by the way, you know what I mean that, because they'll never ask you again. So the guy that's me hey, you know we want more banjo. This Tony, you didn't give us much banjo last season. Can you give us some? You play banjo, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I hang up and I'm yelling to my wife who, do we know, owns a banjo.
Speaker 2:I never played a banjo in my life. So I ended up finding my father-in-law had a banjo sitting in a closet somewhere, so I grabbed it. I got on YouTube. I learned how to play banjo and how to tune it over the weekend and I had a microphone and I'm sitting there trying to play this thing and I had this little riff that I was playing and I'm trying to move the mic because I never recorded a banjo, I didn't know how to do it. And my wife came in and she's like send that in. That's funny, that little thing you're playing. I'm like it's nothing, I don't even know what I'm playing, I'm just trying to figure this out. And she's like, yeah, but they don't know that, just send it in.
Speaker 2:Well, as a musician, you know I know how to read music. I'm skilled. I haven't, you know. My ego tells me I'm this great musician. You know what I mean. I would never just send that in. It has to be this thought out, well musician thing. You know what I mean? Well, I sent it in. That ended up becoming size theme with a little hiccup in it, and it's kind of just how it kind of worked. I made more money on that little track playing banjo for the first time, and what you hear is me plinking away for the first time trying to figure it out, and that's when I realized I got to get out of my own way as a musician. I got to stop thinking I'm something. I'm not, I'm just a guy. I came up with a thing, send it in, because you never know All the stuff I worked so hard on, with all the different parts and how they interweave.
Speaker 2:And I'm thinking this is going to be the one they're going to go. Tony, you're genius, this is the best one. It doesn't even get picked up. Then a little plinky banjo and then that's the one that gets played hundreds of thousands of times.
Speaker 1:So you just, you just never know, you just never know, when something's going to stick to the wall or not. And now you're getting to a point where you're getting ready to release some of your music that, if I'm correct, was recorded during that time in Meridian and working for Doug Dynasty. Can you elaborate on that? I?
Speaker 2:have a record coming out next month and I'll give you a little bit of how we're releasing it, because a couple of things have changed. It's called Duck Days and how it came about. When the show ended and I was already doing all these other shows and we moved from Meridian to Pensacola and I was doing my flamenco CDs and all this kind of stuff and I just, like I said, I don't think a lot of at the time when I recorded the record I was like, oh, I'm going to put this out. People want this music.
Speaker 2:And then when Duck Dynasty kind of went away, I didn't want to play like that anymore. I was looking at other things. So I kind of moved on. And then I went to a party not long ago or the summer, or a friend of mine, and all these people came up to me and that I didn't know they met me for the first time and all of a sudden I'm being introduced. Oh, this is Tony the Duck guy, the guy who did the music for Duck Dynasty. And I'm like, really I'm still that guy after all these years, but I'm proud of it. I mean, I love what I did with that show and that's when all these people had all these stories and they started talking about it again and I'm thinking, you know, I'm sitting on all of this music and I'm like maybe it is time, Maybe it's come full circle.
Speaker 2:I was able to get away from it for a little bit, but obviously the show still resonates with so many people. There's been incendication for years. Now we're in, I think, 10, 12 countries or whatever it is. Now I mean, this thing just keeps rolling. For me it's gone global, it's all over the world. So for me, you know, it's just royalties.
Speaker 2:At this point I just kind of see where it goes Streaming, it's on all the streaming platforms, all that kind of stuff. But people still like you know it's still out there and people still resonate with this. So that's when I was like I think I need to revisit it. And then, when I listened to it again, I was like this is kind of a fun record. I mean, you know, I can see why people like it. I, you know, kind of brought me back to that point and I was like, okay, I think it's time. Maybe now is a good time to kind of put it out, because I have a new show coming out and I thought maybe it's time to remind people you know who I am or where I came from, or you know why they like me? I don't know, so that's. I just thought the company was good.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned your show Tony's Backstage Pass. Yeah, now where can people find that? Where is that? I know I went to your website, but is that coming out exclusively on YouTube, your website? Where can people find that?
Speaker 2:That now that's coming out soon it hasn't debuted yet. Well, and what ended up happening was what we're going to do with the album I'm actually next month you're going to see in October and come back to to all my social media. We're going to be doing a little bit of a crowdfunding, this TV show I have called Tony's Backstage Pass. What happened was, during the pandemic, of course, the whole music industry shut down. Nobody was touring or doing anything. Well, if you know anything about musicians, we don't sit around. So we started talking to each other and we started remembering all the old times and telling all these great stories. And that's when it dawned on me and I went you know, this would be a cool show. My production company kept saying let's do a music show of some kind. They wanted me to do like maybe, where I gave lessons or I taught people how to write music for TV or something like that, and I was like, ah, none of that really kind of resonated with me. And then this backstage passing came to me, where I was having all these great conversations with all my friends and I'm like that's the show, it's the behind the scenes. That's what I know. That's been my career. I know all the production people and the lawyers and all these kind of people and I have these stories that you know that I could tell, and so do they. They have amazing stories. These people are so talented and so I was like that should be the show. Let me do this.
Speaker 2:So we came out with this Tony's Backstage Pass. We were going to sell it to TV. We dealt with some networks and that was a nightmare. Never, oh, it's just so much, too much actually. And that's when a friend of mine came back to me and said no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't give this to them, do it yourself, do it here. So we're going to do it as a kind of a video podcast type of thing. We're going to put it out on Spotify and YouTube and all those kind of places where you get, you know, podcasts and everything.
Speaker 2:We have 22 episodes that we filmed and it's just these great kind of conversations with my show. For me, I can't sit. You know I'm out. So a lot of our stuff has live performances. I'm in recording studios, like we went to James Burton who played guitar for Elvis, and we're in his recording studio, and so I want to give people that kind of look and feel of the backstage. So, and we talked to a lot of fans and a lot of people behind the scenes and people like me who write and do things behind the scenes and so I think it's and I keep it light and I think it's just a fun little show, but what we ended up. So we're going to ask for a little bit of a crowdfunding thing next month to help us launch this thing in the beginning of 2024. And if you help us with the show, I'm just going to give you a free download of this record.
Speaker 2:Very nice Very nice Thank you Because, again, just the support and everything that I've been given through the years and, like I said, people seem to like this music and I thought, well, what a great way I'm not going to ask them here Help me with my show, and now, buying my record, I thought that's a bit much. Okay, help me with the show and I'll give you the record as a thank you. You know, because the support just has meant so much. I mean, I've had so much of it throughout the years. It's just amazing to me.
Speaker 1:So both the album Duck Days and Tony's Backstage Pass will be available in October. Is that correct of?
Speaker 2:2023?. The show is going to come out the beginning of next year. We're going to debut the show, the crowdfunding is going to be next month and the album will be available next month. And all you do, you know, if you give us, you know, any kind of support through the crowdfunding, we're going to probably go through like Indiegogo or something like that and we'll do an actual crowd. So if you help us out, you get a link and you get the album for free 13 songs and you know it's all the fun stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, county Line Congregation, that's what we call the audience here at the County Line. Tony, we're going to personally give out a call to action to help Tony out with Tony's Backstage Pass and share it with at least one person. That's all I ask of the County Line Congregation on this episode. Tony, I have thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation and we could go for hours and unfortunately today I've got to cut it short. But let's do this again, man, let's do this again. You've got to wealth, the knowledge. You've obviously experienced a lot in the music industry, obviously a talented musician, and we're so, so thankful and grateful that you decided to come on the County Line and tell us all about your life and all the endeavors that you have going on. And, as we've mentioned before, here at the County Line, we just want to help people, and so anything we can do in the future to help you push this thing out, man, we're willing and ready to do so, brother.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it and, like I said, I have clips and stuff. So if you want to post anything, feel free. If people want to see what the show is and everything, and just again, thank you for your support. I want to have you on my show once we get up and running, and this is just wonderful. I just thank you for the support and everything.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it Absolutely, Tony. We're going to leave it right there. County Line Congregation. Thank you so much, Tony Pasco. Thank you so much, Until next time, peace.